Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Terms like “Type”.

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Terms like “Type”.

Postby David W » 19 Mar 2016, 23:33

Top-down talking about our bikes is when we make general statements about large groups of our bikes. To do that, we need terminology. For example:

Question 1: What name should we use for the whole ball of wax, the enormous group of ALL the bikes that Honda built around their 1084cc V-4 engine?

Answer 1: We could call it the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles.

And then, what are the main differences among all of those bikes in that Line (consisting of maybe a hundred thousand bikes)?

Some Pans and STs have factory ABS; some have factory Police gear; but the majority have neither ABS, nor Police gear. I would propose the term “type” for discussing such differences. For example, I would say there are at least three types of models in the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles:

• ABS Type,
• Police Type, and
• Standard Type, or Plain Type (as in the terms Standard ST, and Plain Pan).

Even with those terms like “type” available, there are still three remaining wrinkles to resolve:

Q2: Should we say the ABS Type actually consists of a pair of types: ABS I Type, and ABS II Type?

Q3: Do Americans have no problem with the idea that every model year from 1991 through 2002, the USA imported two models of what we are calling "Standard ST" (known as the California, and the 49-state model pair)?

Q4: Should we call the 1999 Anniversary ABS II models a special type, or just separate models, separate from the corresponding non-anniversary, 1999 ABS II models? (Are they simply of the ABS II Type, or even more simply, of the ABS Type?)

Those wrinkles aside, I think the time is ripe for use of “type.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby mbrST1100 » 20 Mar 2016, 10:30

Haven't we been though this before?

From the technical POV (tech support, locating spares) there just 3:

- standard/non ABS, '90 to '00('02)
- ABS-I/TCS, '94
- ABS-II/CBS, '96 to '00('02)

The official P-spec model was always based on the standard/non-ABS

Changes on the early models:
PAIR added, design of case vent, design of w/pump

Determining if it has an oil-cooler/HEX with 26A alternator, or the air-cooled 40A unit is the year: build before or after '96

Then there some minor adaptations due to local, national requirements/regulations throughout all years:
- HP output (3 classes there), one/both low beams activated, parking light, hard wired headlights, running lights, colour/shape/presence of side reflectors, bilux or H4 lamps, asymmetric headlight lens cut, size of main and idle jets...
- tank vent re-breathing system in accordance/due to California state emission laws
Based on this we could speculate about a "European spec" or "US spec" version...
Keep tires down, ATGATT, STOC# 637 (Sept.'97), PanEuro# 42 (Oct.'97), candy glory red '92 (sold), re-furbed '94 (wicked), strawberry '00 (daily)
User avatar
mbrST1100
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 4403
Joined: 27 Nov 2003, 12:40
Location: Vienna, AuSTria
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100Y
Year: '00, '94
Colour: R151CU

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 20 Mar 2016, 21:58

mbrST1100 wrote:Haven't we been though this before? ...
We have already discussed the meaning of the term "model" for Pans and STs but have not to my knowledge, tried to use the proposed term "type" for top-down talk. Since Honda uses that term model a lot, I have recommended using it as Honda does, as more of a bottom-up term, rather than a top-down term. Honda would say that the model changes every time any one of the following occurs:

- The model year (or year code) changes.
- ABS/TCS is added at the factory. And in some cases, even when:
- The importing market changes (even though practically nothing else changes).

For example, I count 23 models of Pan European in just the six earliest model years: 1990 (L), 1991 (M), 1992 (N), 1993 (P), 1994 (R) and 1995 (S). (And that does not include non-Pan STs.)

Therefore I have to disagree with your use of the term "model" in the version of this thread that is running elsewhere, in the ST-owners pub:
mbrST1100 elsewhere wrote:... technically, there are just 3 models:

- standard/non-ABS, '90 through '00('02)
- ABS-I/TCS, '94
- ABS-II/CBS, '96 through '00('02)

This is the info we need for technical support, locating spares, determining which tires/sizes ...
I would tentatively agree that there are just three types overall, just as you listed them above:

- standard/non-ABS type, '90 through '00 ('02)
- ABS I type, '92-'95
- ABS II/CBS type, '96 through '00 ('02).
mbrST1100 wrote:... The official P-spec model was always based on the standard/non-ABS ....
I will have to look a bit more at that idea that the police models were absorbed by the standard, non-abs type, from a top-down view. Thanks for posting that POV. Near the bottom of the following page, there is a listing of parts manuals that supports that view; the list has only two columns, called ABS and Non-ABS:
http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html (Look for the purple box.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 20 Mar 2016, 23:53

David W wrote:... And then, what are the main differences among all of those bikes in that Line (consisting of maybe a hundred thousand bikes)? ...
mbrST1100 wrote:... Changes on the early models:
PAIR added, design of case vent, design of w/pump

Determining if it has an oil-cooler/HEX with 26A alternator, or the air-cooled 40A unit is the year: build before or after '96 ....
The type (ABS or non-ABS) might be the most important source of differences among our bikes, but then the year would be the second most important source. Certainly if there is only one ABS type, then the model year (pre-'96 or post-'95) is very important. Again, the year is not ignored in the important listing found on this page: http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html (Look for the purple box.)
mbrST1100 wrote:... Then there some minor adaptations due to local, national requirements/regulations throughout all years:
- HP output (3 classes there), one/both low beams activated, parking light, hard wired headlights, running lights, colour/shape/presence of side reflectors, bilux or H4 lamps, asymmetric headlight lens cut, size of main and idle jets...
- tank vent re-breathing system in accordance/due to California state emission laws
Based on this we could speculate about a "European spec" or "US spec" version...
Yes, a third source of differences might be called the "nationality" of the bike. But I think that overall, nationality is less important than both "type" and "year".
The fact that the creator of those mentioned parts lists was able to merge across nationality indicates, IMO, that nationality is in third place in the big picture of trying to sort out parts differences. (But many North Americans still prefer the European style headlight unit.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby Nonkel Luc » 21 Mar 2016, 10:23

for me there are only 2 types (models) of bikes.

Type 1: on the road
Type 2: in the garage

I really love all type 1 bikes, bud I also have sometimes a type 2 bike

my 2 cents

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
May the bike be with you
Greetz Luc
User avatar
Nonkel Luc
Triple Bacon Butty
Triple Bacon Butty
 
Posts: 126
Joined: 04 Jan 2013, 10:42
Location: Oostakker, Belgium

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 21 Mar 2016, 17:56

mbrST1100 wrote:... From the technical POV (tech support, locating spares) there just 3:

- standard/non ABS, '90 to '00('02)
- ABS-I/TCS, '94
- ABS-II/CBS, '96 to '00('02)

The official P-spec model was always based on the standard/non-ABS ....
Since Martin has had experience with both the standard non-ABS and Police non-ABS model(s), I would trust his statement about them and recommend the following partial description:

Some top-down talk:
There are at least two types of models in the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles. One of those types can be called the Non-ABS type. And that Non-ABS type can, in turn, be split into:
- the Police Non-ABS sub-type, and
- the Standard Non-ABS sub-type.

I think that statement is accurate although I do not like using the word sub-type.

And I still prefer the simplicity of the idea that the only other type is simply the ABS type. We can let the year imply the distinction between ABS I and ABS II; those two would be sub-types, or whatever the right word is.
Does anyone have any top-down talk from Honda?

By the way, if police models are merged under Non-ABS, then the first of the three items in the above quotation should be changed slightly to read:
- standard/non ABS, '90 to '00 ('03)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 24 Mar 2016, 02:46

Nonkel Luc wrote:For me there are only 2 types (models) of bikes. ...
Thanks for the reminder that we need to keep this as simple as possible. The following is another attempt at some simpler, top-down talk about the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles:

There are two main types of models in the Pan/ST1100 Line:

ABS Type and
Non-ABS Type.

If one wants to get more specific about the ABS main type, then one can talk about two types of ABS models:

ABS I Type and
ABS II Type.

If one wants to get more specific about the Non-ABS main type, then one can talk about two types of non-ABS models:

Police Type and

Standard Type, or Plain Type, or Civilian Type.


That gives us a total of four "types" of Pan/ST1100. Those four types divide the entire Pan/ST1100 Line into four large groups of bikes.

Thanks again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Red Line-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If one knows the type of a Pan or ST 1100, and one wants to get more specific, then the next step is usually to specify the model year, or year code, of the bike.

And finally, if one knows both the type and the year of a Pan or ST 1100, and one wants to get even more specific, the third step is usually to specify the nationality of the bike (meaning the market that imported the bike).

But here, we are not trying to sort out all the one hundred or so "models" of Pan/ST1100. We are only trying to introduce the word "type" as a tool useful in top-down talking, or in talk about a member's specific bike.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 10 Apr 2016, 22:16

David W wrote:... we need to keep this as simple as possible. The following is another attempt at some simpler, top-down talk about the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles ...
Circling down some more towards that elusive thing called Simplicity, we make another attempt at describing the "types" of Pan/ST1100 models that there are. (This time, we recognize not four, but only three types.)

1. The Pan/ST1100 Line is a diverse group of models. There are a total of roughly about 100 or so models of Pan 1100 and ST 1100. (If details are desired, please see Note 1 below.)*

2. Part of that diversity arose because Honda used the Pan/ST Line to introduce their first successful version of motorcycle ABS. As a result, the Pan/ST1100 Line can be divided into two main groups of models: the ABS equipped models, and the non-ABS models. (For details, see Note 2.)**

3. Another part of the diversity arose because the Pan/ST1100 Line was produced mainly for Europe, and several markets there often ask for a "police" version to supplement any "civilian" version. So Honda mildly modified non-ABS models to create also some Police models. (Details in Note 3.)***

4. Because of the diversity in the Pan/ST Line, there are at least three distinct types of Pan/ST1100 model:

- ABS type,
- Police type, and
- Standard ST type, or Plain Pan type (which were fitted with neither ABS, nor with Police mods). (Details in Note 4.)****

-------------------------------------------- Red Line --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All those who venture beyond the Red Line will find only details on what came before the Red Line:

* Note 1. We are using the word "model" in what we think is Honda's meaning of that word. For example, in Honda's terms, the model changed every time the year changed (whether or not any of the bike's parts changed).

** Note 2: I think the first Pan/ST version of motorcycle ABS, which is now known as ABS I, was Honda's overall third attempt at bike ABS.
I think Honda's second attempt was unveiled earlier, in 1988, and made use of a flywheel in both wheel hubs. All Pan/ST1100 ABS type models were fitted with not only electronic ABS, but also with TCS. (Honda seems to have been the first with street bike TCS.)

*** Note 3: The main difference between a Police Pan and a standard, plain Pan seems to be in the bike's wiring and switch gear. But Honda designated their police result as a separate model, and we follow Honda here. (Honda described their Police type on the following, archived page: https://web.archive.org/web/20070630131 ... T1100p.asp .)

**** Note 4: Use of words like standard or plain to describe bikes does not imply any kind of cheapness. In fact, all Pan 1100s and ST 1100s were very expensive when new.
Perhaps the best available, bird's-eye view of the entire Pan/ST1100 Line can be found on the "Parts Fiche" page over on the ST-1100.com web site. Look especially there for the lists that are near, or highlighted by, a

purple or gray box. Those lists do not separate the ABS models into
ABS I and ABS II models, and in the interest of simplicity, neither do we here. The referenced page can be found here: http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html
.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby alans1100 » 11 Apr 2016, 02:52

We've just had a member in Ozstoc purchase their first ST. This probably relates to one of your other topics but some of it here as well. Before a vehicle of any description can be sold over here ( as with most markets I guess) it needs meet our ADRs (design rules) and if it does then an approval number is given.

Way back in 1989/90 approval was given for Honda Australia to sell the ST1100 over year. The ST was built 5/90 and L as the VIN year code. Suffice to say that engine and VIN both fall with the range for Australia. The interesting point is that the approval number for the 1990 L is the same as my 1999 AX suggesting that Honda Australia sees them as the same model with ABS and Police as just factory fitted options. Perhaps no different than a Chev Impala having a 6 cylinder with a V8 engine as an option; it's still an Impala. For it to be called a different model it would be a e.g. GTO.
OzStoc Member ( http://www.ozstoc.com ) FarRider No. 921

Image
User avatar
alans1100
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: 02 Jan 2013, 21:01
Location: Peterborough, South Australia
Full name: Alan
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100AX
Year: 1999
Colour: Midi Metallic Blue

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby mbrST1100 » 11 Apr 2016, 19:57

David W wrote:Those lists do not separate the ABS models into ABS I and ABS II models, and in the interest of simplicity, neither do we here.

So your purposely ignoring the uniqueness of the ABS-I/TCS...
Keep tires down, ATGATT, STOC# 637 (Sept.'97), PanEuro# 42 (Oct.'97), candy glory red '92 (sold), re-furbed '94 (wicked), strawberry '00 (daily)
User avatar
mbrST1100
Bacon Butty Legend
Bacon Butty Legend
 
Posts: 4403
Joined: 27 Nov 2003, 12:40
Location: Vienna, AuSTria
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100Y
Year: '00, '94
Colour: R151CU

Next

Return to ST1100

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests