Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Terms like “Type”.

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby alans1100 » 20 Sep 2017, 14:42

David W wrote:I have yet to see an ABS model or a Police model that is a part or portion of a standard ST1100 model. So I cannot substitute the word version for what I am calling type above.
Sorry but without the actual ST1100 you can't have either of the ABS or Police versions.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 01 Oct 2017, 22:05

alans1100 wrote:
David W wrote:I have yet to see an ABS model or a Police model that is a part or portion of a standard ST1100 model. So I cannot substitute the word version for what I am calling type above.
Sorry, but without the actual [standard?] ST1100 you can't have either of the ABS or Police versions.

We have tried using the term variant (instead of version) with some success: An ABS model is a variant of a standard model. A Police model is also a variant of a standard model.

The only ABS versions of a model I know of are portions of a European ABS model. For example, the British version of the (1992) non-Spanish ABS Pan N model is an ABS version of an ABS model. There is also a British version of the (1992) standard non-Spanish Pan N model; it consists of standard, plain Pans. And there, I think, are British versions of Pan Police models. All such early, non-Spanish models, and their versions, are being discussed in a nearby thread called Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models.

I don't think any Australian model was built in more than one version. The word version is reserved for discussing Pan models, and for the two USA 1991 M models, which are both standard type models.

I have started using the term "variety" instead of the term "type" because people post that the term type has other meanings, meanings not related to the differences among the ABS type, the Police type, and the standard type.
An alternate term which probably sounds too scientific is "species".

Edit: I think the word "type" will serve us well enough (for top-down talking) if we extend it to read "model type".

Example: The Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles contains more than 100 of what Honda calls "models". That large group of models can be divided into three main groups of models.
We can call the base models the Standard or Plain model type. The main variant models of the standard models can be called the ABS model type. And the milder variant models can be called the Police model type.
Overall, globally, the Standard models are the most numerous, followed by the ABS models, followed by the Police models. In other words, the Standard model type contains the most models; the ABS model type, the next most models; and the Police model type, the fewest models of the three model types.
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We can do some top-down talking without using either the word type or the word variety, as follows:

The overall Pan/ST1100 Line can be divided into three global model series:

the standard global model series,
the ABS global model series, and
the Police global model series.

The same can be said for the Australian ST1100/A/P Line of motorbikes; we can even omit the word "global" in that case. (Just call each model series an Australian model series.)
We have started looking at the three Australian model series in the nearby thread called Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Aussie ST Models as Samples.

And back on the Pans, we have listed the standard, earlier non-Spanish model series in that thread mentioned above; see the post there dated 11 September, 2017. (We will soon look there at the corresponding ABS and Police model series.)
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The term model series is the highest-level term we seem to have from Honda. The term version is the second lowest-level Honda term, the lowest level term being motorcycle, which refers to a specific bike. As an extreme example, the entire 1992 Italian version of the 1992 standard, non-Spanish Pan N model consists of a single motorcycle. (For 1992, Italians wanted the Italian ABS version much more than that plain version.)
The term global model series used above is an invented term; a global model series is a group of model series that are identical except for the nationalities or markets that they were built for.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Terms like Type.

Postby David W » 09 Oct 2017, 02:04

I just noticed that this thread has received its share of views. In my experience, that signals it is time now to pull together whatever we have, and see what kind of top-down talk we can produce with it.

So here is yet another attempt:

The Three Types of Pan/ST1100 Models and Model Series

When Honda introduced the Pan/ST1100 Line in 1989, they introduced it as base models, called either ST1100 Pan European, or called ST1100. Today, we can describe our base-model bikes as Standard ST1100s, or as Plain Pans. And we can describe the models to which those bikes belong as being of the Standard or Plain model type.

When Honda introduced an extension of the Pan/ST Line in 1991, they called the new, variant bikes ABS/TCS. Today, we can say that ABS/TCS models are of the ABS model type; they are denoted as ST1100A. And we can say that Honda extended the Pan/ST Line by adding the ABS Segment to their existing Standard/Plain Segment.

Honda further extended the Pan/ST Line by adding the Police Segment to it, starting with model year 1993. Although the Police model type is perhaps just a mild variant of the Standard/Plain model type, Honda seems to recognize it as a valid extension of their Line. And we can use the term ST1100P to denote a Police bike or model whose year and nationality have not been specified.

Having now taken the Pan/ST Line apart, and having given names to the three resulting Segments, we can now put it back together again and call it the Honda ST1100/A/P Line of street motorbikes. That Line consists of the Standard ST1100 Segment, plus the ABS Segment, plus the Police Segment. Each of those three Segments consists of models that are of one, and only one, model type. (Thus, there are three main model types.)

Because ST1100/A/P models differ considerably in their current price and availability, the picture of the overall Line that we have described may be of use to a prospective Pan/ST1100 buyer. (It may help the buyer focus on which Segment is most likely to contain an affordable bike that is a desirable candidate for purchase by that buyer.)

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For those not familiar with the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorbikes, even its standard "base" models were very expensive when new, everywhere globally that they were sold.

We still have not drawn or produced the "picture" described just above. Maybe someone can sketch a main line segment called Standard Segment 1990 - 2002; plus a branch segment called ABS Segment 1992 - 2002; plus another branch segment called Police Segment 1993 - 2003. (Maybe the three segments could be coloured differently. The overall title of the drawing could be something like The ST1100/A/P Line of Motorbikes.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Red Line----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And later: For each of the three Segments, we would describe what it consists of, in terms of both model years, and model series, a term which could use further definition here but which is used by Honda.
(Hopefully, that can be done in a separate thread, or in separate threads.)
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Top-down Talking in Terms of "Model Type"

Postby David W » 11 Oct 2017, 17:08

I am going to dust off an older post, revise it, and now submit it again, as follows:
On 22 April 2016, David W. wrote:... To be able to do top-down talking, we need to distinguish three types of Pan/ST1100 models:

S (or no letter at all) is for the Standard model type. A model of such model type was originally called simply "ST1100". Nowadays, the meaning of the term ST1100 is much more broad, and so probably the term "Standard ST1100" should be the recommended term for a standard type model. In automotive terms, this Standard type is the "base" model type of the ST Line. (The letter S is provided mainly for those who wish to abbreviate "Standard ST1100" as "SST1100" or even as "SST".)

A is for the ABS/TCS equipped model type. A model of such model type can be called an ST1100A. This ABS type is the major variant model type of the ST Line.

P is for the model type equipped with Police gear; a model of such model type can be called an ST1100P. This Police type is the minor variant model type of the ST Line.

The whole 1100 cc ball of wax, or all of the 1100 cc models together, as a global group, can be called the Pan/ST1100 Line. And an arbitrary model from that Line can be called an ST1100/A/P ....


Those three model types allow us to cleanly divide the ST1100/A/P Line into three line Segments, which we can name: the Standard ST1100 Segment, the ABS Segment, and the Police Segment of the Line. Each Segment consists of models of only one of the model types: S type, A type, or P type.
The following two horizontal lines illustrate that the overall Pan/ST1100 Line can be cleanly split into three coloured line Segments, with one Segment for each model type.

_____________________________________________________________ The ST1100/A/P Line and

_____________________________________________________________ as coloured line Segments
Standard ST Segment............................ABS Segment.............................Police Segment of the Line.


(The above should display as one pair of horizontal lines. If it does not, please post here so that I can shorten those two lines.)

Can we better display those three line Segments together, so that they can be better compared?
The next post below is one attempt to do so; it also tries to describe what the resulting display shows. (The Display is in the middle of that next post.)
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Describing and Displaying the Development of Diversity

Postby David W » 21 Oct 2017, 19:45

This is an attempt to provide an Overview of the Pan/ST1100 Line of street motorbikes. (This Overview has both a Description and a Display.)

The Description:

0. Honda's Pan/ST1100 Line of street bikes has its share of diversity. Although most of its bikes are European style touring bikes, some are Police bikes. Although most of the Line's touring bikes are non-ABS, some are fitted with both Beemer style anti-lock brakes, and with a Traction Control System. And there are even considerable differences among ABS/TCS models (using here the term models in the Honda sense).

In order to sort out the hundred or so diverse models that comprise the Pan/ST1100 Line, we now review how that Line developed. (This will allow us to cleanly divide the Line into three line Segments.)

1. The Line was introduced using what, in retrospect, are the base models of the Line. Honda calls these models either ST1100 Pan European, of just ST1100. We can use the term Standard ST1100 for such models, and we can say that they define the Standard model type.

2. For the third model year, Honda added what we can call ABS models to the Pan/ST1100 Line. Because ABS models differ considerably from the base, Standard ST1100 models, we can call the ABS model type the major variant type of the Line. We can follow Honda by denoting them as "ST1100A" models. (But we do not call ABS II a different model type than ABS I.)


3. For the fourth model year of the Line, Honda added Police models to it. Because Police models differ only in the details, relative to the Standard ST1100 models, we can call the Police model type the minor variant model type of the Line. And we can follow Honda by denoting them as "ST1100P" models.

So by the fourth model year of the Line, Honda was building three distinct model types for their Line: the Standard ST1100 model type; the ABS model type; and the Police model type. Because the Police models are non-ABS, those three model types cleanly divide the overall Line into three line Segments, one Segment for each model type. And we can rename the Line by denoting it as the ST1100/A/P Line.

The Display:

Pictorially, we can display the overall ST1100/A/P Line as a simple, straight line. Then we can use model types to cleanly divide that same Line into three coloured Segments. All of that was done near the bottom of the previous post that is just above this one.
Then we can take those same three line Segments and display them in the way that they developed, which was in parallel. The following five or so tall lines try to display those three coloured Segments in that way.


L M N P R S T V W X Y 1 2 3 (year codes)

ABS ________________ ST1100A (1992 through 2002)
Police ________________ ST1100P ('93 to '03, off and on)
___________________ Standard ST1100 (1990 to 2002)

L M N P R S T V W X Y 1 2 3 (year codes)



The above five tall lines attempt to illustrate how Honda, over the years, introduced more and more diversity into their Pan/ST1100 Line, as was discussed in the above paragraphs that are numbered as 1, 2 and 3.
(The above should display as three horizontal lines with labels above and below. If they do not, please post here so that I can shorten those lines.)

For an expanded view of this Display, go to the next line below and click on the attached file, which is called The Three Segments of the ST1100 Line.pdf.
The Three Segments of the ST1100 Line.pdf
(250.34 KiB) Downloaded 58 times
Or, view the following, alternate version (and maybe comment on whether you like it better):
The attachment The Three Segments of the ST1100.pdf is no longer available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Red Line, beyond which are only Details--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes on the Description:
Paragraph 0. For more about the meaning of the term "model" per Honda, see the nearby pair of threads called Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models and Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Aussie ST Models as Samples.
1. There was never anything in the price of a new, standard ST1100 to indicate that there was something "base" about it. For the second model year of the Line, there were only a handful of changes in the hard parts of Standard ST1100s. Some paint colors changed.
2. The "differences among ABS/TCS models" mentioned above in Paragraph 0 of this post are mainly between the ABS I and ABS II models. But outside of Europe, those differences seem to not be reflected in the frame numbers or VINs that Honda assigned to ABS models.
So those differences are less important for the sorting out of models than they are for ordering parts, or for comparing parts lists.
3. Whenever possible, we should note its characteristic frame number when we find a specific example of an ST1100P. It is because Police frame numbers seem to be different that we consider Police models to be of a separate model type.

Notes on the Display:
The Police Segment shown above is simplified in the sense that there was not a Police model for all years, 1993 to 2003. For example, there was no Police model for year code R, or for model year 1994.
Two other attempts to display the three Segments of the Pan/ST Line in parallel are the two attached "Word documents" below, both if which are labeled with the .docx suffix. Those attached pages attempt to show how the three Segments were produced in parallel, but with slightly different starting and ending years. The above two .pdf files show the same thing one should see in the .docx attachments. I cannot guarantee you will be able to view those Word documents. Word is a text-processing, software product from Microsoft Corp. But in order to view the attached Word documents, I personally first "open" them. If necessary, I specify each as a "Word document". If each then does not display as a single, simple, standard page, with only one "column" of text, I then go to the upper left corner of my computer screen; I click on "VIEW"; then I click on "Layout"; then I click on "Paper Layout". Both .docx files below are in "landscape" format; they are not in the more typical "portrait" format.
Attachments
The Three Segments of the ST1100 Line.docx
(13.44 KiB) Downloaded 47 times
The Three Segments of the ST1100.pdf
(422.67 KiB) Downloaded 64 times
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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