Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Terms like “Type”.

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 17 Apr 2016, 22:25

This is mainly for the Aussies. (Similar info can be found nearby on viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13969&start=10 .)
alans1100 wrote:We've just had a member in Ozstoc purchase their first ST. This probably relates to one of your other topics but some of it here as well.... The ST was built 5/90 and L as the VIN year code. Suffice to say that engine and VIN both fall with the range for Australia....
In the nearby thread called Some hiSTory: L models Led the Launch of Line in most Lands, we have the following quote from a post on there 02 Jan 2015:
David W wrote:... Question 19: What were the tenth, eleventh and 12th markets to receive L model bikes?
Answer 19: Honda then started building some Australian ST1100s, plus some NEST Pan versions for Northern Europe (mainly Sweden; but also Denmark) and Finland (or Suomi). During what we can call the Aussie-Northern period, Honda built some 1400 more bikes ....
-------------------------------------------Red Line (for the remaining details)---------------------------------------------------------------------
All L model engine serial numbers have the form SC26E-200xxxx, so we can abbreviate them by writing just the xxxx portion of the number in square brackets, like in this sample: [1234] is short for engine number SC26E-2001234....
Answer 19: Reference is made to engine numbers [3703] thru [5102], which includes Germany's [4162]. That first number, [3703], is Australian....
Answer 19 above mentions Honda started building Aussie STs, but I estimate they might have built only a token ten Aussie bikes at that time....
Judging from the build month of 05/90, this ST1100 was probably one of those early "token ten" Aussie STs. The quote relies heavily on engine numbers, so it would be interesting to have the engine number (somewhere around SC26E-2003703).
Also, the first ten Aussie frame numbers, or VINs, are:
JH2SC26U*LM000002 through
JH2SC26U*LM000011,
so it would also be interesting to verify that this ST has a VIN in that narrow range.
Finally, Honda seems to have been spraying only black paint onto non-Pan ST1100s in May of 1990, so can we find out the original colour of this ST1100 (not that it really matters) ?
If all those things are verified, we definitely could report in detail to OzSTOC about the building of the Aussie L model. (We have a second example in Alan Boole's ST1100 L model, built two months later, which Honda reportedly painted silver over the original black.)
Reference page: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13969 , especially the post on 02 Jan 2015.
If possible, please post any reply on this page: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13969&start=10
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 17 Apr 2016, 23:15

mbrST1100 wrote:
David W wrote:Those lists do not separate the ABS models into ABS I and ABS II models, and in the interest of simplicity, neither do we here.
So you're purposely ignoring the uniqueness of the ABS-I/TCS...
Except for their very marginal battery charging system (and their front wheel that could be wider and/or better suited for a radial tyre), the ABS I models are, in my opinion, uniquely superior to (although more expensive than most) other Pan/ST models. But this thread is an attempt to look at the Pan/ST1100 Line, not as you or I or the Australian government views it, but as Honda sees it. So let's have a look at Honda's model names for all three Australian "types" for the crucial, transition model years of 1995 and 1996:

Standard type + ABS type + Police type:

1995 ST1100S + ST1100AS + ST1100PS

1996 ST1100T + ST1100AT + ST1100PT

Honda's name for their ABS models, ST1100A, did not change going from year code S to year code T.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then let's look at the frame numbers (which are VINs) that Honda assigned to, again, all three Australian "types" for model years 1995 and 1996:

Standard type (code 0) + + ABS type (code 5) + + Police type (code 8):

JH2SC26U*SM50xxxx ++ JH2SC26U*SM55xxxx ++ JH2SC26U*SM58xxxx
JH2SC26U*TM60xxxx ++ JH2SC26U*TM65xxxx ++ JH2SC26U*TM68xxxx

The only things that changed, going from year S to year T, are related to the model year: character positions ten (which is universal) and twelve (which is specific to Honda).

I think we could get the same kind of results if we looked at Spanish Pans for those years, and I know we could for North American STs, but I do not have my Clymer manual (which I use for looking up frame numbers) handy.
Non-Spanish Pans changed from old-style frame numbers to VINs, going from code S/1995 to code T/1996, so this seems to be one instance where Europeans can learn about Honda from members on other continents.

Summary:
For 1992, Honda added a second type of ST to their Line. The ST1100A was new then.
For 1996, Honda revised an existing type, the ST1100A, to produce more ABS type models. Those revised ABS type models are called ABS II models. So the ABS type can be divided into ABS I models and ABS II models. All ABS type models have TCS; in fact, the capable TCS on them was not revised for 1996.
(But the ABS I/ABS II division is something that a prospective buyer of an ABS type model should, IMO, definitely be aware of.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reference pages for Australian frame numbers:
1995 Aussie models: http://www.cmsnl.com/search/index.php?s ... a&spbmvin=
1996 Aussie models: http://www.cmsnl.com/search/index.php?s ... a&spbmvin= (Ignore that fourth ST1100P parts list for Spain.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby Derek-Dex-French » 19 Apr 2016, 12:51

Type 1: My bike.
Type 2: The rest.
I love being right. If only it happened more often...
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby Critters » 19 Apr 2016, 13:07

Its all waaaaaay too deep for me anyway. I think if i got that concerned about my bike my next room would be padded [THUMBS UP SIGN]


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Disclaimer: The above is probably bollox. If it sounds like advice or that I am knowledgeable, that is purely coincidental. Following anything suggested above may be detrimental to you health.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 23 Apr 2016, 02:53

Derek-Dex-French wrote:Type 1: My bike.
Type 2: The rest.
Top-down talking is where one stops talking about only his own Pan or ST and starts talking about all "the rest" of the bikes, at least all of those other Honda touring bikes that have the same kind of 1084cc engine as his bike. Such talk may not be for everyone, but ...

To be able to do top-down talking, we need to distinguish three types of Pan/ST1100 models:

A is for the ABS/TCS equipped type; a model of such type is called an ST1100A .

P is for the type equipped with Police electrical gear; a model of such type is called an ST1100P .*

S (or no letter at all) is for the Standard or Plain type. A model of such type was originally called simply "ST1100". Nowadays, the meaning of the term ST1100 is much more broad, and probably either the term "Standard ST1100" or "Plain Pan 1100" should often be the recommended term for a standard/plain model. (The letter S is provided mainly for those who may wish to abbreviate "Standard ST1100" as "SST1100".)


The whole 1100 cc ball of wax, or all of the 1100 cc models together, as a group, can be called the Pan/ST1100 Line. And an arbitrary model from that Line can be called an ST1100/A/P .
(In that last term, the specific model type is not specified, as for example, when one wants to talk only about all of the engines, and cares neither about the brakes, nor about the electrical gear. As another example, the Honda ST1100 service manual, dated 1992 or later, is titled ST1100/A because it covers both the Standard ST1100 type and the ST1100A type.)
---------------------------------------------------------Red Line--------------------------------------------------------
* Details on that Police term, ST1100P: The term ST1100P as used here is not to be confused with the same term, ST1100P, which refers to a 1993 Standard ST1100. The official designation of a '93 Standard ST1100 is indeed "ST1100P" but where P is a year code; that last P does not stand for police in that last term. For example, the official designation for the oldest Police model is ST1100PP because it happened to be a '93 model, a so-called P model.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 04 Sep 2017, 02:32

We have another input from down under. It is in a different thread, but here it is:
alans1100 wrote:... For our Ozstoc forum, we would define the ST1100 as having three models/versions: ST1100, ST1100A and ST1100P (Police).
So I am inclined to simply pick up where we left off last time in this thread:
David W wrote:... To be able to do top-down talking, we need to distinguish three types of Pan/ST1100 models:

A is for the ABS/TCS equipped type; a model of such type is called an ST1100A .

P is for the type equipped with Police electrical gear; a model of such type is called an ST1100P .

S (or no letter at all) is for the Standard or Plain type. A model of such type was originally called simply "ST1100". Nowadays, the meaning of the term ST1100 is much more broad, and probably either the term "Standard ST1100" or "Plain Pan 1100" should ... be the recommended term for a standard/plain model. (The letter S is provided mainly for those who may wish to abbreviate "Standard ST1100" as "SST1100".)

The whole 1100 cc ball of wax, or all of the 1100 cc models together, as a group, can be called the Pan/ST1100 Line. And an arbitrary model from that Line can be called an ST1100/A/P ...
And I would add that an alternate name for the entire Pan/ST1100 Line is the ST1100/A/P Line of motorcycles.

So Ozstoc also breaks the entire Line into three parts. But note that the Australian member used the terms "models/versions" instead of the term "types" to describe those three parts. I do not use either term the models or the term versions because Honda uses both of those terms to mean something else than what I am calling types here.

How does Honda use the term model? (This is not the first time here that I have looked to Honda for an answer because it is Honda, not Ozstoc or even the Pan Clan, that we all have in common here.)
American Honda put out at least two versions of a book called Honda Motorcycle Identification Guide. (I quote from the 1959-1998 version.)
There, Honda gives a partial list of standard ST1100 models: ST1100 '91, ST1100 '92, ...., ST1100 '98. There are eight models listed, and all 8 are USA.
There, Honda also gives a partial list of ST1100A models: ST1100 '92, ST1100 '93, ...., ST1100 '98. There are seven more models there, and all 7 are USA.
Honda even splits each of those eight standard ST1100 models into two models: The California model and the non-California or "49-state" model, for each year 1991 thru 1998. That adds 8 more models.
All told, Honda lists 8 + 8 + 7 or 23 models, all of which are US. Worldwide, at that rate, there are probably more than 70 models of standard ST1100 and of ST1100A. So I cannot agree with the Aussie who says there are only two "models", the non-ABS and the ABS.
Edit: Here is a quote, from that same Honda book, that I used to understand the terms model and model series:
Honda's comments on year-to-year model changes: [They] ... Represent feature changes when compared to the previous model of the same model series. (end of Edit)

Why do I not use the word "version" instead of "type"? Quoting from that same Honda book, Honda is explaining the term Area Code that they use in that book:
"Area Code - Represents special model versions designed for use in a specific country...."
I picked up on that idea and said that a version is a portion of a model. That meaning for the term version has proven to be very useful in describing the Pan models of Europe (For example: the non-Spanish Pan L model was built in ten versions, one for each of ten European markets.)
And that meaning has also been useful in describing USA 1991 models. (Both the California and the 49-state 1991 models were built in an early version and a later version.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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The Time is Ripe for Talk of Type or some Other, better Term

Postby David W » 06 Sep 2017, 23:11

In a nearby thread called The Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models,
alans1100 wrote:... Apart from a minor upgrade or two along the way there is no difference between an ST1100 from 1990 to 2002; except for year of production.
The same could also be said of the A and P variants, which is what they are, though out here the ABS (and it's included extras) was available as a factory fitted option....
He then clarified,
alans1100 wrote:The P in this comment [above] is for Police, not the P for year [1993].
He then quoted,
David W wrote:... The Australian standard ST1100L (1990) and Australian standard ST1100P (1993 non-police) together started what, I believe, Honda calls a "model series", which is a group of models that are the same except for year, and for the relatively minor changes that occur as the year changes. That Australian, standard model series extends beyond 1995 to include all Australian standard models (but not Australia's ABS or Police models)....
And then ...
alans1100 wrote:You're almost there with that comment for the meaning of "model" [instead of "model series"] I was trying to infer though I would include ABS and Police variants....

Although I haven't here quoted my Honda source on it yet, I got both of the terms "model series" and "model" from Honda and therefore am very reluctant to substitute Honda's term "model" for Honda's term "model series".
Alan seems to be consistently using the term "variants" where I have sometimes been using the term "types". I have no qualms about substituting his word "variants" or some other word like "varieties" or "kinds" or "optional types" for "types" as long as we do not substitute a word that Honda uses for some other purpose than what we have so far been calling types. (And while we are considering changes, we might want to add the word main.)

But let's now try the words out before we tentatively adopt one of them:

One Pan rider says to another,

"I see you're riding an ST1100. Which of the two ST variants is your bike? Or do you have the standard type?" Or

"I see you're riding an ST1100. Which of the three main ST varieties is your bike?" Or

"I see you're riding an ST1100. Which of the three main ST kinds is your bike?" Or

"I see you're riding an ST1100. Which of the two ST optional types is your bike? Or do you have a standard type?" Or

"I see you're riding an ST1100. Which of the three ST types is your bike?"

Does anyone have any other suggested term(s) for use here, instead of words like type or variants , in our top-down discussions of the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorcycles?
If not, when the time comes for voting on our terminology:
Don't forget to vote! Not that it matters ... (Who else said that?)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Tentative Top-down Talking in Terms of the Term Type

Postby David W » 16 Sep 2017, 22:30

An Australian member has suggested adding the term "variant" to our vocabulary.
Now, let's go for a road test to try out that word and other words we have to work with.

Tentative Top-down Talk:

The Pan/ST1100 Line of motorbikes is a diverse one. But not much of that diversity derives from the difference between a Pan model and the corresponding, non-European ST1100 model.

The standard ST1100 models, or plain Pan models, were in production for a period of about 13 years!
But not a whole lot of the mentioned diversity derives simply from that long production span.

Much of mentioned diversity derives from the addition of ABS/TCS variant models, while keeping the standard, plain models in full production. Those ABS variant models are significantly different enough so that no one has ever really successfully merged the parts lists for the ABS/TCS models, with all their electronic trickery, with the corresponding parts lists for the standard, plain models.

So, one of our members has proposed that we describe the overall Pan/ST1100 Line as follows:

The Pan/ST1100 Line consists of three main Types of models:

1. The Standard or Plain Type of model was originally designated as "ST1100". (That notation is now not as clear as it was previously; an alternate designation that is clearer is "Standard ST1100" or even "SST1100" Type.)

2. The ABS/TCS Type of variant model is designated as "ST1100A". (For example, the Honda service manual bears the designation "ST1100/A" on its cover, to clearly describe its coverage of both standard ST1100 and ST1100A Types.)

3. The Police Type of variant model is designated as "ST1100P". Two comments pertain to that Police Type of model:

.. 3.a. The term "ST1100P" has an alternate meaning of "1993 Standard ST1100" because the letter P is also a "year code" for model year 1993. (So maybe one should use "Police ST1100P" to make ones Police meaning clear.)

.. 3.b. The amount of diversity derived from the addition of the Police variant models to the standard Type models is not nearly as great as was that derived from the addition of the ABS variant models. But we have decent notation for the Police Type, so we tentatively include it as a third and final Type of Pan/ST1100 model.

In summary, an alternate name for the Pan/ST1100 Line of motorbikes is ST1100/A/P Line. (That alternate name clearly suggests that there is more to this diverse Line than just standard ST1100s and plain Pans.)


---------------------------------------------------Red Line, beyond which are only Details-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Why not split the ABS Type into two types: the earlier ABS I, and the later ABS II ? I can think of two reasons for not doing so:

.. 4.a. We want to keep this as simple as possible. For most of our members, three main Types of Pan/ST is already plenty enough.

.. 4.b. Although it may be too early to say so for sure, I think comparison of the Vehicle Identification Numbers (VINs) of both the North American and Australian ABS I and ABS II models will indicate no major break in the model designations Honda uses for them, and no major changes in the VINs Honda used to label individual bikes. If one could get Honda to omit all the marketing hype that surrounded the introduction of ABS II models, I think Honda would say that the ABS/TCS Type received important revisions for model year 1996/year code T; but those revisions were not as significant as were the changes that Honda made in the Standard Type to create the ABS Type for model year 1992/year code N.


5. In the USA and the USA only, Honda designates the USA's California, standard models as ST1100L instead of ST1100; ST1100 is the designation for the USA's 49-state, standard models.
Even though that term ST1100L gives us a fourth model designation, the California models do not add enough diversity to the Pan/ST1100 Line to consider them to be a fourth Type of model.
Once again, three Types are plenty enough. (And by the way, the term that American Honda uses to designate an ABS Type model is ST1100AL, not simply ST1100A.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby alans1100 » 17 Sep 2017, 03:01

Variant/variation/type can be used in place of version. e.g. ST1100 and ST1100A look the same but are slightly different. The 1100A can be a different version, it can be a variation or a different type.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... /variation

3. something that differs from a standard or convention

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... sh/version

3. a variant form of something; type

If I was to consider "type" for the ST1100 then it would be either a " Tourer" or a "Sport Tourer" depending on the market it was old in. It's a term I use when someone asks what sort of bike it is as most tend to confuse it with a BMW of the same era.
OzStoc Member ( http://www.ozstoc.com ) FarRider No. 921

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Re: Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.

Postby David W » 18 Sep 2017, 00:24

This to explain why the term version cannot the used instead of the term type. (We cannot simply say, for example, that an ABS model is a version of a standard model.)
But in what follows, we do not explore what other words, like variation or variant, might be used instead of type.
alans1100 wrote:... https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/version

3. a variant form of something; type ...
That was the meaning of version that we first used here in connection with Pans.
For example, the first Pan or ST1100 model that Honda ever started building was the non-Spanish Pan L model, or 1990 non-Spanish Pan model. We said that they built it in ten versions, one for each of the ten non-spanish markets of Europe (Austria, the UK, Germany, France, etc.) That meaning is reinforced by the way American Honda has used the term version:
David W wrote:... So Ozstoc also breaks the entire Line into three parts. But note that the Australian member used the terms "models/versions" instead of the term "types" to describe those three parts. I do not use either term the models or the term versions because Honda uses both of those terms to mean something else than what I am calling types here.
... Why do I not use the word "version" instead of "type"? Quoting from that same Honda book, Honda is explaining the term Area Code that they use in that book:
"Area Code - Represents special model versions designed for use in a specific country...."

There is a second meaning of version:
... https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/version
1. A version of something is a particular form of it in which some details are different from earlier or later forms.

We used that second meaning of version to describe the two 1991 USA standard ST1100 models. For example, the '91 California ST1100 model was built in two phases. The first phase, built in February/March of 1990, was intended to be sold in the American summer of 1990. We called that the early version of the '91 California ST1100. The second phase, built in about October of 1990, was intended to be sold during the American summer of 1991. We called that the later version of the 1991 California ST1100. We said that the 1991 California ST1100 model can be split into two versions, an early version and a later version.

What do those two usages (the European/American Honda usage and the usage for '91 USA models) of version have in common? In both cases, a version is a portion of a model. A version does not contain as many bikes as does the model that the version is part of.
I have yet to see an ABS model or a Police model that is a part or portion of a standard ST1100 model. So I cannot substitute the word version for what I am calling type above.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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