Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Re: With 8K Views, here is More News.

Postby David W » 20 Jul 2014, 23:55

mbrST1100 wrote:...'95 was a "face lift" year; changes in excess of above were: ...
- IIRC a different shade of gray for the inner fairing, pocked lids, meter panels and pannier lid bottoms (<'95 have a dark grey there, >'96 come in a significant lighter tone; drives one crazy when refurbishing a <'95 as you'll need to replace all panels, parts, lids there to achieve the uniform look again...)
- altered RHS crash bar and cover, to feature that notorious "tow hitch" wire-loom...
- slightly different graphs on ... switches (... symbols on h/bar switches)
- colour of the fuel warning light lens got changed from red to amber (probably due some stupid EC reg...)
- the already mentioned different mufflers were also caused by EC regs, as the noise emission test was altered from "measured in standstill @ XXXXrpm" to "drive by @XXXkph and @XXXXrpm... the same crap probably also influenced the OEM selection of tires them bikes came with; suddenly Exedras were out, Dunlops were in to cut down the rolling noise... (so tires didn't got selected for their handling, performance and duration anymore, instead purely to meet "some data" in a spec-sheet...)
- different handle bar, thus different end weights (thus the different plastic cover, whose mounting points also required a modification on the upper triple-clamp).

That's what I can come up from memory right now...
I agree with the above quote except:

Most of the listed details of the paint colours and decals used are way beyond me; I look at hardware mostly;
The RHS crash bar was alerted so that one could use it as a locking point; the "wire loom" was not involved there;
The fuel warning light is still red on North American models (which supports his account);
I did not realize the triple clamp changed.

I think one of the fork tubes was also altered for the S models; I don't remember which, or how.

Just out of curiosity, how did Martin come up with such a long list so quickly?
mbrST1100 wrote:... In matters of design '95 was a stray bullet anyway, as they came up with that weird Apple Beige for the belly pan, crash bar covers, side cover protections and pannier lid bottoms...
Looked very odd and dirtied up very quickly... fortunately they went back to the Gusto Grey in '96...
As a final note, the objections he lists for the S models are all cosmetic; they can be solved by repainting. If one does not need the higher-output, air-cooled generator/regulator, the standard S models have most all the hardware that the later standards do; maybe at a lower price, too. (North American S models have very popular cosmetics. And there are Police S models that are probably similar.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby alans1100 » 21 Jul 2014, 06:45

David and all,

Part number standard industry practice.

Regardless of the industry all manufacturers use part numbers but they are a code as well. The number includes the product, the supplier and any other information that is needed. Any change to any given product means a new part number. An example was the LH fender (mudguard) on a car in Australia. The base model may just have the fender and has a part number. That same part might have an optional hole for a radio aerial so that requires a variation in the original part number (the last digit might go from 1 to 2). Add holes for a badge it would go up another number but if you needed a badge and an aerial hole then another number and so on.

An example on the 1100 would be the LH Pocket or 64226-MAJ-G00ZA . The 1100A needs holes for the ABS/TCS switches so we get 64226-MAJ-G10ZA

A lot of parts are made by suppliers and if all goes well the part numbers remain the same. Maybe the supplier needs to be changed for performance reasons (the standards are high), or the business has failed then the same identical part gets a new number and the change will occur during the production year.

The same change can occur if the part was made in house and then contracted out but this usually happens at the beginning of the next production year (e.g. T to V)

An example on the 1100A would be the part number change for the ABS control unit from T to V years/models

-------------------------
The 1995 1100 and 1100A (S model) there were three colours available. One of those was Pure Pearl Red (R-158P) which was just for US and Canada

The rest of the world had Lapis Blue Metallic (PB-257M) and Candy Wineberry Red (R-114C-U) on the 1100S with Australia having the red one. The 1100AS had Candy Tropical Night Purple (RP-103C-U) and Atlantis Blue Pearl (B-142P) with us picking up the blue.

That year also had two different greys. NH-285 or Gusto Grey which was on the red US, Canada models (from Partzilla) and police bikes (world wide). The other Fur Grey NH-304R in the parts fiche only shows for the belly pan, the piece in front of the clutch and the wings. The Gusto Grey was still on the fairing pockets and handle bar cover so two greys were on the same model at the same time. If I look at the Australian 1100 parts list I get fur grey with the 1100S blue and the 1100AS red that we got.

Was there a supplier issue causing a colour change for models that weren't sent to the US and Canada and Police bikes for that year?

Any Silencer/Muffler changes would be subject to local laws in force at the time but it's an internal change. In Australia the same silencer is used for the all years.
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Twelve thousand Views deserve more News.

Postby David W » 22 Dec 2014, 03:50

A bit more on this Vintage subject:

In order to indicate the vintage of a Pan or ST1100, Honda assigned to it both a model year code and a model year.

But on earlier Pans (before model year 1996, code T), the only vintage labeling is on the paint sticker, as a year code.
Since that sticker can be removed or modified, here is one more way to determine the model year and code of such a Pan:

The frame "serial number" of the Pan is the last six characters of the frame number; all six are digits. Long ago, before 1990, American Honda at least used the first digit of the frame serial number to indicate the build year. As a vestige of that old practice, Honda used that same first digit to indicate the relative model year and year code of the Pan. Those codes are

0 1990, year code L
1 1991, year code M
2 1992, year code N
3 1993, year code P
4 1994, year code R
5 1995, year code S

(The first number of each line is the first digit of the frame serial number. Then comes the model year, year code.)

Pan riders are fortunate in that the same codes seem to apply for all types (ABS, police, non-ABS) of Pans.

Those codes are specific to Honda; they are not universal (whereas year codes are universal). They might have changed after 1995. But they can determine the proper vintage (for ordering parts from Honda) for many an earlier Pan, in cases where the owner reports the wrong "model year" for the bike. Want examples?
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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David W
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Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Looking now at specific bikes

Postby David W » 19 Jan 2015, 02:13

Now maybe 'tis time to look at some specific examples of bikes and the way their owner describes the bike's Vintage.

I got the following thirteen samples off of the MicaPeak.com "registry" for ST1100s. The format of each sample is: description, frame number, and location.

1. Silver (Black originally) 1991 ST1100 L, JH2SC26U8LM000130, in New Zealand -- Christchurch.

2. Metallic Blue 2002 ST1100, JH2SC26U9YM000189, in Australia (Southern).

3. WHITE 1998 ST1100 POLICE, JH2SC26C1TM000252, in London.

4. White 1998 ST1100, JH2SC26CXTM000461, in the UK -- Aylesford, Kent.

5. Candy Dark Red 2002 ST1100, JH2SC26081M100318, in the USA (NorthEast).

6. Red 2002 ST1100Y, JH2SC26A8YM401612, in Essex, England.

7. Blue 2002 st1100, JHZ5C26AXYM400946, in UK -- Connah's Quay, N.Wales.

8. White 1998 Police, JH2SC26U4TM680110, in Australia (Western) -- Perth.

9. WHITE 1998 ST1100PT, JH2SC26UOTM630055, in the UK -- Dumfries.

10. CANDY WINEBERRY RED 2001, SC26A6YM4012684, in the UK -- Wolverhampton. (He listed it twice there.)

11. green 92 (or '92), 2101942, in the UK -- Warrington. (Believed to be frame number SC26-2101942.)

12. Shasta White 1995 ST1100P-P, SC262350026 (or SC26-2350026), in Bristol, England.

13. Sparkling Metallic Silver 1992 ST1100-M, SC262100548 (or SC26-2100548), in Hanwell, London, UK.

All samples include a calendar year that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
Should the owner of the bike report that model year to Honda when, for example, ordering new parts for it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Details:
If the frame number is the old style, you might find the post dated 21 Dec 2014 just above to be useful.
If the frame number is a Vehicle Identification Number, you might know of, or hunt down, a "VIN decoder" to use on it.

In making the list, I first sorted the ST1100 entries "by VIN (lowest first)" and then tried to keep them in that same order in the above list of 13 samples so that you might be able to locate the samples. I did the sorting on this page:
http://micapeak.com/reg/bikes/ST1100/
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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David W
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Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby alans1100 » 19 Jan 2015, 04:14

David W wrote:
All samples include a calendar year that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
Should the owner of the bike report that model year to Honda when, for example, ordering new parts for it?


At my dealer all I need is to give "ST1100AX" or "1999 1100A" . More than likely I will just order the part number. My recent order when buying a new key blank needed the number on the original key and the VIN to make sure Honda supplied the right key.

My bike is on that Mica site as well

JH2SC26U4XM850049:
Blue 1999 ST1100A (Updated: 2015.1.18) Location: Australia (Southern) -- Peterborough, South Australia
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes: #11, #12 and #13

Postby David W » 23 Jan 2015, 03:49

David W wrote: The format of each sample is: description, frame number, and location. ...

11. green 92 (or '92), 2101942, in the UK -- Warrington. (Believed to be frame number SC26-2101942.)

12. Shasta White 1995 ST1100P-P, SC262350026 (or SC26-2350026), in Bristol, England. [added sample]

13. Sparkling Metallic Silver 1992 ST1100-M, SC262100548 (or SC26-2100548), in Hanwell, London, UK.

All samples include a calendar year that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
Should the owner of the bike report that model year to Honda when, for example, ordering new parts for it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Details:
If the frame number is the old style, you might find my post dated 21 Dec 2014 just above to be useful. ...

Sample 11 is decoded as year code M, Honda model year 1991, not 1992. (I decoded the first "1" into 1991, year code M.)

Sample 13 is much the same except the rider is aware it is an M model. He should report that and 1991, not 1992, to Honda.
Both of those Pans probably have "ST1100M" on their paint sticker.

Addition to this post: In Sample 12, the rider is aware that he has a P-P model; but that first P means Police and that second P is a year code for model year 1993. The paint sticker may have only the year code, as in "ST1100P".
The "3" in the frame number is decoded as 1993, year code P. The rider should report year code P, Police type, and 1993, not 1995, to his Honda dealer.

All three of these samples report a model year that is too high; reporting the year code instead should be preferred.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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David W
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Posts: 1156
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
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Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby mbrST1100 » 23 Jan 2015, 14:00

David W wrote:I did the sorting on this page:
http://micapeak.com/reg/bikes/ST1100/

Any particular reasons why you'd left the details on the European area.codes, like AR, E, ED, F, FI, G, IT, N, SP, and SW?
North, East, South and West Europe just doesn't cover it...

Instead you split the US market into 9 areas, which I just cannot find confirmed the avail literature...
There were no different wiring diagrams, headlights, light switch pods, ignition locks, ICUs, carb boots, cams, etc... for different states like across Europe...
Keep tires down, ATGATT, STOC# 637 (Sept.'97), PanEuro# 42 (Oct.'97), candy glory red '92 (sold), re-furbed '94 (wicked), strawberry '00 (daily)
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby David W » 24 Jan 2015, 18:11

alans1100 wrote:... At my dealer, all I need is to give "ST1100AX" or "1999 1100A" . More than likely I will just order the part number. My recent order when buying a new key blank needed the number on the original key and the VIN to make sure Honda supplied the right key.

My bike is on that Mica site as well: JH2SC26U4XM850049 ...
Your post on micapeak seems accurate. Your year 1999 and your year code X both seem to be consistent with what Honda calls your ST1100A, judging from this Honda page:
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100a-pan- ... partslist/ [corrected from original]
Starting there, the Honda dealer could move to this next page for key blanks (two items, both numbered 5, but not the same):
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100a-pan- ... ml#results [corrected from original]
The dealer would then look at the first character (A, B, C, or D) of your key number to determine which of the two blanks to order for you. (But this item costs too much from a dealer - unless you need your key to say "ST1100" on it.)
Many dealers (and some bike thieves) can make a key using only the numbers on the original key; that is why those numbers are confidential.
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
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Posts: 1156
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby alans1100 » 24 Jan 2015, 23:06

David W wrote:Starting there, the Honda dealer could move to this next page for key blanks (two items, both numbered 5, but not the same):
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100-pan-e ... ml#results
The dealer would then look at the first character (A, B, C, or D) of your key number to determine which of the two blanks to order for you. (But this item costs too much from a dealer - unless you need your key to say "ST1100" on it.)


This is the right page for mine; it would appear the frame number range that the ABS version was built before the non-ABS http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100a-pan- ... partslist/
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Year: 1999
Colour: Midi Metallic Blue

Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby David W » 25 Jan 2015, 00:44

alans1100 wrote:... This is the right page for mine; it would appear the frame number range that the ABS version was built before the non-ABS http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100a-pan- ... partslist/
I originally posted links for the non-ABS, a mistake, but I then went back and corrected them to be for your ABS. (See post above, corrected.)

The VINs for the two types (ABS, non-ABS) are different even though the year and nationality are the same. So their serial numbers cannot be compared; one cannot tell which of the two models was built first. (Note the fifth to last digit in the VINs, or second number in the "serial number". They differ for the two Aussie types.)

I would write the numbers for the two types a bit diffently than cmsnl:

XM900001 up to XM909999 Non-ABS frames
XM850001 up to XM859999 ABS frames
2900001 up to 2909999 engines for both types. (Only the last four digits change from bike to bike.)

And elsewhere, I've seen mention of even an Australian 1999 ABS "Anniversary" model which has, as I recall, frames like these:
XM950001 up to XM959999 ABS Anniversary frames
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
User avatar
David W
Bacon Butty Legend
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Posts: 1156
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 04:50
Location: Topeka, Kansas, USA
Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

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