Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby alans1100 » 29 Jan 2015, 13:54

We're having a little pole over at Ozstoc in regards to who owns which year.
Interesting is we have a gold 1100AX (anniversary model) built 02/99 with frame number starting with 950
Mine in essence is the same except it's blue and built 06/99 and frame number starting with 850

It looks like the anniversary model had a non-abs frame on this one when looking at your previous post
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Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby David W » 31 Jan 2015, 03:50

alans1100 wrote:We're having a little pole over at Ozstoc in regards to who owns which year.
Interesting is we have a gold 1100AX (anniversary model) built 02/99 with frame number starting with 950.
Mine in essence is the same except it's blue and built 06/99 and frame number starting with 850.
It looks like the anniversary model had a non-abs frame on this one when looking at your previous post.
There should never, IMO, be much debate over the Honda model year of an Aussie ST. First, there is always a VIN, the year code is in the VIN, and that code is also at the end of the first line of the paint sticker. For example, if the code is X, then the Honda model year is 1999 without exception. Second, the build month and year are on the steering plate near the rivet; the Aussie government seems to require Honda to assign the build year as their model year. Since both of these models were built in 1999, they both are 1999 models, in Honda's eyes.

It is not the frame number that starts out 950 or 850, it is the serial number portion of the frame number, or the frame serial number. That portion omits the year code which is the key item in this debate. Anyway, one should not think that the 850 model was a 1998 model whereas the 950 is a 1999 model. (What we are seeing here is that Honda ran out of places to code the ABS type and the model year into the serial number portion. Do not let their frustration frustrate you.)
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Regarding my previous post, I think that Aussie 1999 anniversary model has ABS for these reasons:

1. ST1100AX includes the letter A for ABS.
2. The fifth to last digit of "5" in the VIN or frame number indicates ABS. (A zero "0" there indicates non-ABS; an "8", police type.)

Also, the Clymer manual lists the bike as both ABS and 1999/code X model year. (That manual is recommended for Aussies due to its listing Aussie non-Police models through year 2000.)

The gold colour is due to the anniversary being the fiftieth, or golden one. (North Americans received no such model.)
David W wrote:...
XM850001 up to XM859999 ABS frames
...
And elsewhere, I've seen mention of even an Australian 1999 ABS "Anniversary" model which has, as I recall, frames like these:
XM950001 up to XM959999 ABS Anniversary frames

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Looking now at two other, older Aussie L models, not X models, we find these two on micapeak.com, and the second one is our Sample #1:

Blue 1990 ST1100, frame number or VIN JH2SC26U7LM000118 in Australia (Eastern) -- Sydney.

Sample 1, Silver (Black originally) 1991 ST1100 L, VIN JH2SC26U8LM000130, in New Zealand -- Christchurch.

The owner of the first seems to know his Honda model year is 1990, and year code is L.
The owner of the second also knows he has an L model, but apparently his government assigned a model year of 1991 to his. Honda probably know of no 1991 Aussie ST1100 model; they should be told the ST is a 1990 L model. (The second owner did tell me his engine number and month of manufacture, which was very helpful.)
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Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby David W » 07 Feb 2015, 22:55

alans1100 wrote:We're having a little poll over at Ozstoc in regards to who owns which year....
There seem to be two examples there on your poll page where the bike is in some ways a 2000 Aussie ST1100P police type yet, the month of manufacture is 2003 or even 2004!

On cmsNL.com, the last year for police models is 2000, but maybe their list is incomplete.

One chap here in the US has a 2003 ST1100P3 police model, I believe.
(We need to focus sometime on the police type worldwide; something is strange about it.)

By the way, the Aussie Continent is the only place where the year of manufacture seems to be always the same as the model year indicated by the code in the VIN. (Elsewhere, build year is almost always one year less than model year, IMO.)

Reference page: http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=8685.0
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And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby Critters » 07 Feb 2015, 23:43

David W wrote:
On cmsNL.com, the last year for police models is 2000, but maybe their list is incomplete.

One chap here in the US has a 2003 ST1100P3 police model, I believe.
(We need to focus sometime on the police type worldwide; something is strange about it.)



In the uk we were issued 4 new Police ST1100's from Honda which were certainly not straight off the production line, I believe Honda had a whole warehouse full of them and once the weave issues on the ST1300 started to cause a lot of uncertainty, these were offered to Police forces as a temporary measure to fill the void of withdrawn machines, we kept ours and never saw another ST1300.

So there will be 2003 registered 1100's but they will have been manufactured years ago,it is strange however Honda kept these bikes stored and already kitted up with lights and sirens with only markings needed to make them slot into place at work.
Brian


Disclaimer: The above is probably bollox. If it sounds like advice or that I am knowledgeable, that is purely coincidental. Following anything suggested above may be detrimental to you health.
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Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby alans1100 » 08 Feb 2015, 01:25

David W wrote:
alans1100 wrote:We're having a little poll over at Ozstoc in regards to who owns which year....
There seem to be two examples there on your poll page where the bike is in some ways a 2000 Aussie ST1100P police type yet, the month of manufacture is 2003 or even 2004!

There's two ways that this might happen:-
1. Some owners might see the year of first registration as the model year. Some states over here include that detail in the registration details where others just use the VIN year code.
2. Police bikes; most of our bikes come over here in kit form and generally the brand importer (in most cases) puts them together. The month and year when that happens then goes on the compliance plate.

This procedure is certainly not what the legislation for vehicle compliance in Australia says about putting the plates on; Once type approval has been given (ST1100L in this case) then it's the manufacture who puts the plates on. Type approval only needs to be done on one bike (1990) and covers all years and variations ( A and P) until production ends. I know it's a debatable point but it could be seen that Honda Australia is part of Honda Japan and as such might be considered the manufacture when the bikes are assembled and then the plate goes on.
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes: four T models

Postby David W » 09 Feb 2015, 00:59

David W wrote:Now maybe 'tis time to look at some specific examples of bikes and the way their owner describes the bike's Vintage. I got the following [four] samples off of the MicaPeak.com "registry" for ST1100s.
The format of each sample is: description, frame number, and location.

3. WHITE 1998 ST1100 POLICE, JH2SC26C1TM000252, in London.

4. White 1998 ST1100, JH2SC26CXTM000461, in the UK -- Aylesford, Kent.

8. White 1998 Police, JH2SC26U4TM680110, in Australia (Western) -- Perth.

9. WHITE 1998 ST1100PT, JH2SC26UOTM630055, in the UK -- Dumfries.

All samples include a calendar year [1998] that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
Should the owner of the bike report that model year to Honda when, for example, ordering new parts for it?
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If the frame number is a Vehicle Identification Number, you might know of, or hunt down, a "VIN decoder" to use on it.
All four samples are T models, as indicated by the tenth character of their VINs.
Starting with an Aussie Police model, Sample 8 looks like what Honda calls a 1996 Aussie Police ST1100TP. In the serial number, 680110, the 6 indicates 1996, and the 8 indicates police (down under only). The year 1998 must have been assigned by either the government upon registration, or the Aussie assembler building this police model from a kit. In either case, I think the owner should report 1996 instead to his Honda dealer, and use a parts list such as the one labelled "ST1100P PAN EUROPEAN 1996 AUSTRALIA" found on page http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100p-pan- ... partslist/
(I find no cmsNL.com parts list for a 1997 or 1998 police model of any nationality. So use that 1996 one?)

Samples 3 and 4 seem very similar to each other. Apparently, the model is called "ST1100P PAN EUROPEAN 1996 ENGLAND / MKH". The serial numbers, 000252 and 000461, both start with 0, a Honda code for 1996 in these cases, and then another 0 because non-Aussie models have no need to use the second digit of the serial number to indicate police type. The owner should, IMO, report "1996 T model" to Honda Parts, and should refer to the parts list like the one on this page: http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100p-pan- ... partslist/

All four samples are police type and are therefore not listed in the tables in the front pages of the Clymer manual.

Sample 9 in Dumfries has me a bit Dumbfounded. It looks just like an Aussie police T model that has been imported in the UK - until one looks at the serial number, 630055. The 6 just indicates model year 1996, consistent with the T, but the 3 is something we have never seen before on an Aussie model. Hopefully, it is a misprint for an 8, or a serial number of 680055. I think the owner should report 1996, not 1998, to Honda and should use the same parts list as is recommended above for Sample 8: http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100p-pan- ... partslist/

Brits, is there any way you can contact that last owner to verify what appears to be an incorrect serial number?
Scott Anderson in the UK - Dumfries, email address porg@o2.co.uk and telephone 0+44(1387)257826 .
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes: four T models

Postby alans1100 » 09 Feb 2015, 05:50

David W wrote:Sample 9 in Dumfries has me a bit Dumbfounded. It looks just like an Aussie police T model that has been imported in the UK - until one looks at the serial number, 630055. The 6 just indicates model year 1996, consistent with the T, but the 3 is something we have never seen before on an Aussie model. Hopefully, it is a misprint for an 8, or a serial number of 680055.


I'd say it's a typo error and it should be an eight.

Eight works here http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-st1100p-pan- ... 4764/info/ but 3 and 0 don't

Probably a delivery mix up
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes: four T models

Postby David W » 02 Mar 2015, 02:37

David W wrote:... All samples include a calendar year [1998] that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
.... All four samples are police type and are therefore not listed in the tables in the front pages of the Clymer manual....
All four samples are marked T models by Honda, so the owners are describing their bikes with a calendar year that is two years greater than their Honda model year. (T is a code for model year 1996. Parts lists are labeled with the Honda model year and/or year code.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: Looking now at specific bikes

Postby David W » 11 Apr 2017, 02:07

David W wrote:Now maybe it is time to look at some [more] specific examples of bikes, and the way their owner describes the bike's Vintage.

I got the following ... [four] samples from the MicaPeak.com "registry" for ST1100s. The format of each sample is: description, frame number, and location.

2. Metallic Blue 2002 ST1100, JH2SC26U9YM000189, in Australia (Southern).
...
6. Red 2002 ST1100Y, JH2SC26A8YM401612, in Essex, England.
7. Blue 2002 st1100, JHZ5C26AXYM400946, in the UK -- Connah's Quay, N.Wales.
...
10. CANDY WINEBERRY RED 2001, SC26A6YM4012684, in the UK -- Wolverhampton. (He listed it twice there.)

All [four] samples include a calendar year [2001 or 2002] that is probably described as the "model year" of the bike.
Should the owner of the bike report that model year to Honda when, for example, ordering new parts for it?

All four of these bikes are Y models; the letter Y is in each of the VINs shown. Y is the year code for model year 2000.

In my opinion, all four of these owners should tell Honda that their bike is a year 2000 model, with year code Y. (Yet all four list their model number as either 2001 or 2002, for the public record.)
'Tis not its looks, but how it cooks.
And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.

Re: Various Versions of our Vocabulary of Vintage

Postby alans1100 » 13 Apr 2017, 03:34

David W wrote:Looking now at two other, older Aussie L models, not X models, we find these two on micapeak.com, and the second one is our Sample #1:

Blue 1990 ST1100, frame number or VIN JH2SC26U7LM000118 in Australia (Eastern) -- Sydney.

Sample 1, Silver (Black originally) 1991 ST1100 L, VIN JH2SC26U8LM000130, in New Zealand -- Christchurch.

The owner of the first seems to know his Honda model year is 1990, and year code is L.
The owner of the second also knows he has an L model, but apparently his government assigned a model year of 1991 to his. Honda probably know of no 1991 Aussie ST1100 model; they should be told the ST is a 1990 L model. (The second owner did tell me his engine number and month of manufacture, which was very helpful.)
I just noticed this comment and that Aussie model can't be right unless the colour has been changed. We only had silver that year and didn't get any OEM blue until the 1100R
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