Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Honda Pan-European 1st generation (German design)

Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Postby David W » 31 Jul 2017, 20:11

A. The word “earlier” is used here to mean before model year 1996, or up through model year ’95 (or thru year code S). Here is an example of the use of that term: The earlier Pan models were generally built in pairs. One model of each pair went to Spain; the other supplied all the ten non-Spanish markets of Europe.

B. The “main” earlier models were Pan models. Specifically, they were those non-Spanish Pan models. As important as they are, Honda seems to never really given those non-Spanish models a name. (We might want to call them the earlier, common Pan models.)

C. The proposal here is to use all earlier, non-Spanish Pan models as examples of what Honda means by the term “model”.

D. And we propose to define the term “model” in terms of frame numbers. Earlier, non-Spanish Pans have simpler frame numbers than do all other bikes in the Pan/ST1100 Line, and that is another reason to use them as examples.
(But if our frame-number definition of model is found to be inconsistent with Honda's usage, we may have to downplay simplicity, and look for an alternate approach.)

E. Some of our model examples we have discussed before, so we can start with those. (For details, please venture past the Red Line below, and read the Notes there.)

Example 0: The 1990 Common Pan L model (or what we plan to call the 200 model).

The earliest, non-Spanish, or common Pans were 1990 Pans, or code L Pans.
Even though they were built in ten versions, for all ten European markets except Spain, they all had frame numbers of this same form:
SC26-200xxxx. For example, the earliest Pan or ST built and sent to market is an ED version that has a frame number of
SC26-200
0021. The last 1990 or code L Pan of any kind built is a British Pan that has a frame number of
SC26-200
5860. Both of those sample Pans came from the same Pan model, the 1990 non-Spanish, or common, Pan L model.
(And doing the math, that model contains 5840 Pans.)


F. The Meaning of Model (for the earlier, common Pans): Two non-Spanish, earlier Pans are from the same model if their frame numbers are the same, except for the last four digits of those frame numbers.

The first eight characters of the frame number, which are SC26-200 in the Example, identify the “model”. Those characters can be used as a label for the model.
In summary, our first example of a “model” is the 1990 non-Spanish (Plain) Pan L model, also known as the SC26-200 model, or simply the "200" earlier Pan model.

G. If the frame numbers of two earlier, non-Spanish Pans differ in their first eight characters, then those two Pans are from a different model, and those eight characters can be used to identify the two models involved.

H. We are also using here the term version, or version of a model. We are defining a version of a model to be simply a portion of a model. Different versions of a model might be slight variations on each other, as is the case here, involving early, non-Spanish Pan models. (The model in Example 0 consists of ten versions, one for each of ten Pan markets.)

----------------------------------------------Red Line (beyond which are only the details)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:
A. An exception to the “pairs” statement in Paragraph A is an earlier Police model. The 1995 non-Spanish Police Pan model was built although there was no Spanish Police Pan S model that year, probably due to lack of demand. See also the two ST1100 threads here called Earlier Pans: Models were built paired; and one was shared and The First Two Pairs of Pan Models.
B. Someone has proposed the abbreviation NEST Pan to stand for Non-spanish Earlier ST1100 Pan.
C. The goal here is to define "model" so that it is consistent with Honda's usage of that term. I think we will find, before we are done here, that there are a total of 12 earlier, non-Spanish Pan “models”. (Their eleven Spanish counterpart "models" can be discussed in a separate thread, as can all later Pan models, and all non-Pan models.)
D. Earlier, common Pans have twelve-character frame numbers whereas all other Pans and ST1100s have seventeen-character frame numbers that are called VINs.
E. The 1990 non-Spanish or common (or NEST) Pan L model, used above as Example 0, has been discussed in ST1100 threads here called: L models Led the Launch of Line in most Lands and A Listing of the NUMBERS from the Launch of the Line.
F. The first four characters, SC26, of the frame number identify the Line as being Pan/ST1100. Only characters six thru eight (which are 200 in this example) identify the specific model within that Line.
G. Our first model example is of the “Plain” or Standard type, meaning it is both non-ABS, and also non-Police. All earlier, common Pan models which are identified by characters of the form SC26-2*0 are Plain type models. (Example 0 is identified by the characters SC26-200 and is a Plain type model. We plan to have five more Plain Pan models as examples here. In brief, we can call those five other models the 210, 220, 230, 240 and 250 earlier, common Pan models. For more on the three types of Pan/ST1100, see the nearby thread called Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”.)
H. Versions of a model might be slight variations on each other. Or, the two versions of a model might be an early version and a later version of the model, as is the case of two models not discussed here, namely the two USA 1991 ST1100 models. A version of a model is generally the smallest grouping of bikes that I see Honda using. The second smallest grouping of bikes that Honda uses is the model. A Pan model can consist of up to ten versions of that Pan model. I have yet to see a Canadian or Australian ST model that was built in more than one version.
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The Meaning of “Model” using a 2nd Early, Main Pan Model

Postby David W » 01 Aug 2017, 20:10

Before we go on to a second example, we might want to look at a

Summary of our the first example: The common Pan L model can be called the 200 model because all of its frame numbers are of the form SC26-200xxxx. It is a plain type model of the first (or launch) vintage for the Pan/ST1100 Line, and was built in ten versions for all ten European, non-Spanish markets. The 200 model consists of 5840 Pans, and that number of bikes represents 70%, or seven tenths, of the global total, 8303, for all Pans and STs of that same launch vintage. which is generally associated with Honda model year 1990 and year code L. (Containing 70% of the bikes, it was clearly the "main" model for 1990.)

Going on now to our second example:

Example 1: The 1991 Plain common Pan M model (or 210 model).

The building of the 1991 Pan/ST model year did not start with Pans, but the first Pan built for 1991 was a German version that has a frame number of
SC26-2100001. And the final Pan or ST built for 1991 was a Swiss version that has a (slightly disputable) frame number of
SC26-2103230.

Those 3230 common Pans constitute a model, one which we can call the 1991 Common Plain Pan M model, or the Earlier Common Pan SC26-210 model, or the 210 Earlier, Common Pan model, or simply the 210 model.

The 3230 Pans in that model are second-wave or post-launch vintage, and that second vintage contains a total of 4455 Pans/ST1100s. So the 210 model represents nearly 73% (seventy-three percent) of the total for the second vintage, and that makes it the "main" model for that vintage. Like the 200 model in Example 0, this 210 model was built in ten non-Spanish versions.
Here is a sample frame number for a green 210 model: SC26-2101942 owned by Gavin Andrew in Warrington, UK. He says he converted it to a trike and calls it a 1992 model, which it is not.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next here, we could look at four more examples of Plain Pans:
1992 220 model,
1993 230 model,
1994 240 model and
1995 250 model.

Would anyone care to look up the beginning and ending frame numbers for at least one of those four plain Pan models?

(Or next, we could look at our first ABS example, the 1992 420 model.)

--------------------------------------------Red Line (beyond which are mere details)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more on Example 0, and where the number 8303 comes from, see "1990 Vintage" near the start of the thread Bike Counts for the M year (or for the '91 model year) on nearby page: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14525 .
For more on Example 1, and where the number 4455 comes from, see "1991 Vintage" near the start of that same thread, Bike Counts for the M year (or for the '91 model year) , on nearby page: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14525 .
The word "plain" indicates a Pan model is both non-ABS, and non-Police.

The "slightly disputable" ending frame number, SC26-2103230, for this model is discussed in the nearby thread called Bike Counts for the M year (or for the '91 model year). See especially the post there called Zooming in Now on the ENDING Production of M Models which is dated 21 Aug 2017.

For a bit more on this second sample model, see the early ST1100 post here called The Second Pair of Pan Models which is on this page: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13762&p=181236&hilit=placeholder#p181236
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Re: The Meaning of “Model” using a 3rd Plain Pan Main Model

Postby David W » 02 Sep 2017, 01:52

David W wrote:... Next here, we could look at four more examples of Plain Pans:
1992 220 model,
1993 230 model,
1994 240 model and the
1995 250 model ....

Our third example of the meaning of "model" is yet another plain type, non-Spanish Pan model, that 1992 220 model mentioned above in the quotation.

Example 2:

The 220 Pan model, or the
SC26-220 model, is called those names because all of its frame numbers have the form
SC26-220xxxx. The model was built in seven versions for the seven markets of Austria, Germany, Italy, European Direct (ED), France, Northern Europe (ND) and the UK.
The first-built of its Pans was a German version with a frame number of
SC26-2200001. The last-built was an ND version with frame number of
SC26-2201774. So the model contains 1774 Pans, all of which are plain type, and are vintage, or model year, 1992/code N.
That bike count of
1774 of the model 220 Pans maybe seems low compared to the counts of
3220 Pans for the 210 model of 1991/code M, and especially to the count of
5840 Pans for the 200 launch model of 1990/code L.
But the 220 model has a younger brother called the 1992 ABS type launch model, or 420 model, whereas the 200 and 210 models have no such sibling.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next here, we could look at three more examples of Plain Pans:
1993 230 model,
1994 240 model and
1995 250 model.
Would anyone care to look up the beginning and ending frame numbers for at least one of those three plain Pan models?

Or next, we could look at our first ABS type example, the 1992 420 model, which contains 1060 Pans that have finer brakes and also "traction control".

(And eventually, we will look at the 235 model which is of the Police type, from model year 1993.)
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And I've found that most liter size Pans, when warmed up, cook well.
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Re: The Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Postby alans1100 » 02 Sep 2017, 04:36

I want you to think about another aspect of a model that we would use In Australia.

Apart from a minor upgrade or two along the way there is no difference between an ST1100 from 1990 to 2002; except for year of production
The same could also be said of the A and P variants which is what they are though out here the ABS (and it's included extras) was available as a factory fitted option.

Before a vehicle can sold in Australia it has to be given type approval and for the ST1100 that was given in probably late 1989 or early 1990 and that would cover all the years the model was made in. Honda would not need approval every year as it's the same model.

You might also consider markets outside of EU, UK, US, AU and Canada such as Singapore, Malaysia and not forgetting African countries as well

http://www.sgbikez.com/search-results/
http://www.mudah.my/Malaysia/Motorcycle ... 0-for-sale
Even Russia http://www.pan-european.ru/
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Re: The Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Postby David W » 02 Sep 2017, 23:46

Starting with Alan's first comments ...
alans1100 wrote:... Apart from a minor upgrade or two along the way, there is no difference between an ST1100 from 1990 to 2002; except for year of production.
The same could also be said of the A and P variants ....
Alan is talking in his first sentence about the standard type ST1100, which includes the plain Pan type. We have had three examples of those above, the 200 and 210 and 220.

Let's also bring in the first two Australian standards, which I think were branded as L and P models, meaning 1990 and 1993. (The letter P just used is a year code; it is NOT short for Police, as used there.)

What would Honda say about those five examples?

In 1991, I think Honda of Europe said the 210 , which is M vintage (or 1991), was a "new model" relative to the 200, which is an L vintage (1990). It has little to do with the fact that there were only a handful of invisible changes made for 1991.
A year later, in 1992, I think Honda of Europe said the 220, which is N vintage (or 1992), was a "new model" relative to the 210, which is an M vintage (1991). It has little to do with the fact that only some of the clutch parts and such were changed for 1992.
Changing hemispheres now, in 1993, I think Honda dealers in Australia said the ST1100P , which is P vintage, or 1993 and non-police, was a "new model" relative to the ST1100L, which is L vintage (or 1990). And indeed, that '93 model did incorporate some changes, relative to that '90 model.

You might call Honda's comments "dealer talk". You might even call them dealer hyperbole. Whatever you call them, the goal here is to define the term "model" in a way that is consistent with Honda's usage of the term model.

In my opinion, examples of Honda's word usage are more relevant here than are examples of the way the Australian government handles the motorcycle model approval process.
(The way I would attempt to describe that approval process is: Australia gave approval to the 1990 Australian ST1100L model. That model was followed by the 1993 Australian ST1100P model. That model was followed by the 1995 Australian ST1100S standard type model plus two types of models that were new to Australia: the 1995 ST1100AS Australian ABS model, and the 1995 ST1100PS Australian Police model. As those new models were added to the Australian ST1100 Line of motorcycles, apparently no new approval was required from the Australian Government.)

The Australian standard ST1100L (1990) and Australian standard ST1100P (1993 non-police) together started what, I believe, Honda calls a "model series", which is a group of models that are the same except for year, and for the relatively minor changes that occur as the year changes. That Australian, standard model series extends beyond 1995 to include all Australian standard models (but not Australia's ABS or Police models).

Back now on those three Pan examples, the 200 and 210 and 220 models started a different model series for the non-Spanish, plain Pans. That model series went on to include the 230 and 240 and 250 models from 1993, 1994 and 1995. (That series may have gone beyond 1995 just like the Australian series did; we have yet to discuss where that European model series ends.)

Canada also has a model series of standard ST1100 models which differ only in their "year" (which, by the way, is rarely the year of production in North America).
The USA has two model series for their standard models. One can be called the USA California standard model series. The other can be called the USA 49-state standard model series. (California demanded their own "model".)

Here are two quotes from Honda that I used to understand the term model series:
1. Product Code: ... has been used since 1966 for [Honda's] New Part Number System (NPS) to indicate the vehicle for which a specific part was originally designed. However, the vehicle may be part of a model series, which shared a majority of replacement parts. [Example: The original product code from ST1100s is MT3, and that code occurs in numerous ST part numbers, in the middle section.]
2. Comments on model changes: Represent feature changes when compared to the previous model of the same model series.

Edit: That second quote supports my view that when the model year changes, Honda says the model changes as well, even if there are no parts changes made to the new year's bike model, relative to the "previous model".
alans1100 wrote:... Apart from a minor upgrade or two along the way, there is no difference between an ST1100 from 1990 to 2002; except for year of production....
According to Honda, any difference in year of production (which is the same as model year in Austalia but nowhere else) is sufficient to constitute a difference in ST1100 model, regardless of any year-to-year parts changes, or total lack of such changes. (End of Edit)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Red Line---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The terms "standard" and "plain Pan" and "type" have been discussed in the nearby thread called Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type”. on page viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14245 .

Next time we can talk about Alan's further comments. Here is a preview:
The 1995 ST1100AS Australian ABS model started a different model series, a series for the ABS type of Australian models. Such ABS models are quite different, compared to standard models.
The 1995 ST1100PS Australian Police model started yet another model series, one for the Australian Police models. However, some would say that the Police type does not differ enough from the standard type to call it a separate type.
Australia had a total of three model series. Canada had two model series due to lack of police models. (The USA had, I believe, four if you count the 2003 USA Police model as part a model series that may have only one model in it.)
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Re: The Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Postby alans1100 » 03 Sep 2017, 03:24

alans1100 wrote:I want you to think about another aspect of a model that we would use In Australia.

The same could also be said of the A and P variants which is what they are though out here the ABS (and it's included extras) was available as a factory fitted option.


The P in this comment is for Police not the P for year.
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Re: The Meaning of “Model” using Earlier, Main Pan Models

Postby alans1100 » 03 Sep 2017, 04:05

David W wrote:Starting with Alan's first comments ...
alans1100 wrote:... I believe, Honda calls a "model series", which is a group of models that are the same except for year, and for the relatively minor changes that occur as the year changes. That Australian, standard model series extends beyond 1995 to include all Australian standard models (but not Australia's ABS or Police models).
You're almost there with that comment for the meaning of "model" I was trying to infer though I would include ABS and Police variants.

For our Ozstoc forum we would define the ST1100 as having three models/versions; ST1100, ST1100A and ST1100P (Police)
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The Meaning of “Model Series” using all 6 of our Examples

Postby David W » 11 Sep 2017, 20:20

David W wrote:... Back now on those three Pan examples, the 200 and 210 and 220 models started a ... model series for the non-Spanish, plain Pans. That model series went on to include the 230 and 240 and 250 models from 1993, 1994 and 1995. (That [model] series may have gone beyond 1995 ... we have yet to discuss where that European model series ends.)
... Here are two quotes from Honda that I used to understand the term model series:
1. Product Code: ... has been used since 1966 for [Honda's] New Part Number System (NPS) to indicate the vehicle for which a specific part was originally designed. However, the vehicle may be part of a model series, which shared a majority of replacement parts. [Example: The original product code for ST1100s is MT3, and that code occurs in numerous ST part numbers, in the middle section.]
2. Honda's comments on year-to-year model changes: [They] ... Represent feature changes when compared to the previous model of the same model series.
That is where I got the term "model series" from Honda. Now for an example of a model series.
The attached .pdf file is a table with six lines in it. The first three lines of that table are intended as a summary of the three examples we have had so far here. That six line table displays the "model series" which is made up of the six early, non-Spanish, plain Pan models. To view it, click on, and open the next line:
A Model Series formed from Six Plain Models.pdf
(462.93 KiB) Downloaded 1 time

The following is a miniature version of what you should see in that attached table.

The Early, Non-Spanish, Plain Pan “Model Series”

C
o
d
e ... Year .... Listing .... Frame No. Form ..... Nickname

L ... 1990 .... ST1100L ... SC26-200xxxx ....... 200

M ... 1991 ... ST1100M ... SC26-210xxxx ....... 210

N ... 1992 ... ST1100N ... SC26-220xxxx ....... 220

P ... 1993 ... ST1100P .... SC26-230xxxx ...... 230

R ... 1994 ... ST1100R .... SC26-240xxxx ...... 240

S ... 1995 ... ST1100S .... SC26-250xxxx ...... 250


(A parts list for any of the six models shown can be found by locating the “Listing” for it in the purple box which is on the following page: http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html .)

The last three lines of the above table are for the following three examples of early, plain, non-Spanish Pans:

Example 3: The 230 model, or the 1993 plain, non-Spanish Pan model, year code P,
Example 4: The 240 model, or the 1994 plain, non-Spanish Pan R model, and
Example 5: The 250 model, or the 1995 plain, non-Spanish Pan S model.

We have yet to look at those three examples in detail.

---------------------------------------------Beyond the Red Line: Details only---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My source for the quoted statements from Honda is a paperback book from American Honda called Honda Motorcycle Identification Guide, 1959 - 1998.
The term "plain Pan" has been discussed in the nearby thread called Top-down Talking: The Time is Ripe for Talk of “Type” on page viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14245 . For example, see the post on 23 Mar 2016.

Another attempt to display this early, plain Pan model series is the attached "Word" document below, which is labeled A Model Series formed from Six Plain Models.docx. That attached page again attempts to show in detail the model series formed by the six, early, non-Spanish, plain Pan models. That document should display with six main lines across the page. The main things lacking in the ending three lines of the table are the three frame ending serial numbers. That table can be completed after we have finished discussing our next three examples. The page is in "landscape" format. It is exactly the same as the attached .pdf file shown above in this post.
I cannot guarantee you will be able to view that Word document. Word is a text-processing, software product from Microsoft Corp. But in order to view the attached Word document, I personally first "open" it. If necessary, I specify it as a "Word document". If it then does not display as a single, simple, standard page, with only one "column" of text, I then go to the upper left corner of my computer screen; I click on "VIEW"; then I click on "Layout"; then I click on "Paper Layout". Please post here if you cannot get enough of these illustrations to display.
Attachments
A Model Series formed from Six Plain Models.docx
(12.92 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
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The Meaning of “Model” using Australian ST1100 Examples

Postby David W » 21 Sep 2017, 00:01

David W wrote:... Let's also bring in the first two Australian standards, which I think were branded as L and P models, meaning 1990 and 1993. (The letter P just used is a year code; it is NOT short for Police, as used there.)
What would Honda say about those ... examples?

... in 1993, I think Honda dealers in Australia said the ST1100P , which is P vintage, or 1993 and non-police, was a "new model" relative to the ST1100L, which is L vintage (or 1990). And indeed, that '93 model did incorporate some changes, relative to that '90 model.
You might call Honda's comments "dealer talk". You might even call them dealer hyperbole. Whatever you call them, the goal here is to define the term "model" in a way that is consistent with Honda's usage of the term model....

Here are two quotes from Honda that I used to understand the term model series:
1. Product Code: ... has been used since 1966 for [Honda's] New Part Number System (NPS) to indicate the vehicle for which a specific part was originally designed. However, the vehicle may be part of a model series, which shared a majority of replacement parts. [Example: The original product code from ST1100s is MT3, and that code occurs in numerous ST part numbers, in the middle section.]
2. Comments on [year-to-year] model changes: Represent feature changes when compared to the previous model of the same model series.
Edit: That second quote supports my view that when the model year changes, Honda says the model changes as well, even if there are no parts changes made to the new year's bike model, relative to the "previous model".
alans1100 wrote:... Apart from a minor upgrade or two along the way, there is no difference between an ST1100 from 1990 to 2002; except for year of production....
According to Honda, any difference in year of production (which is the same as model year on the Australian Continent, but nowhere else) is sufficient to constitute a difference in ST1100 model, regardless of any year-to-year parts changes, or total lack of such changes. (End of Edit) ...
alans1100 wrote:
David W wrote:Starting with Alan's first comments ... The Australian standard ST1100L (1990) and Australian standard ST1100P (1993 non-police) together started what, I believe, Honda calls a "model series", which is a group of models that are the same except for year, and for the relatively minor changes that occur as the year changes. That Australian, standard model series extends beyond 1995 to include all Australian standard models (but not Australia's ABS or Police models).
You're almost there with that comment for the meaning of "model" I was trying to infer though I would include ABS and Police variants.

For our Ozstoc forum we would define the ST1100 as having three models/versions: ST1100, ST1100A and ST1100P (Police).
Then Ozstoc seems to be using the terms model/version as terminology for top-down talk. But the term version is, with Honda, a very bottom-up term; a version of a model is generally the smallest grouping of bikes there is. For example, if Australian models had been built in two versions, one for New Zealand and one for mainland Australia, then Ozstoc would probably be familiar with the way Honda uses the term version. As it is, Honda seems to have not built any Australian ST1100 models in two or more versions. The term version is reserved for use only for bottom-up descriptions of Pan models, and of two USA 1991 M (1991) models.

The term model is also a relatively bottom-up Honda term in the sense that a model is generally the second smallest grouping of bikes. Only a version of a model is a smaller grouping than a model. Again, the term model is a reserved term for bottom-up grouping of bikes, such as we are doing with Pans in this thread. (For example, we have discussed six examples of Pan models, and we have six more Pan models to go before we are done here in this thread. We have defined here the term early, non-Spanish Pan model and have made a case for our claim that our meaning is consistent with Honda's usage of that term.)

We now have a separate, nearby thread in which we take a bottom-up approach to Australian ST1100 models. It is called Honda's Meaning of “Model” using Aussie ST Models as Samples.
So we can apparently continue here with
Example 12. The (1992) non-Spanish, ABS Pan N model, which we can refer to simply as the 420 (earlier non-Spanish) model. It began an ABS "model series" containing at least four ABS models.

------------------------------------------------------------Red Line, beyond which is some top-down talk (which seems off-topic in this thread)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For top-down talking, OzSTOC might want to consider the following description of total Australian ST1100 imports, which makes use of the relatively top-down terms model series and Line:

The Australian Line of ST1100 models can be split into three model series:

The Australian standard model series.
The Australian ABS model series, and
The Australian Police model series.

The advantage of describing Austalian ST1100s like that is that OzSTOC usage would then be consistent with Honda usage, which is the same usage that we are, I think, consistently aiming at here. (But the term Line is not from Honda although model series is.)
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Full name: David W.
Make: Honda
Model: ST1100M/P ST1100AR/S
Year: 1991/1993, 1994/1995
Colour: 2 reds; 2 are black.


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